Incidentally, a quick web search for the name "Sonja Talboys" throws up loads of online petition signatures, together with this picture, at the Mustard Casting Agency in Bristol. Maybe it's her, maybe it's someone else.From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject:What a disgrace
Date: 4 June 2009 17:31:40 BDT
To: news@sportingshooter.co.uk
I was in a certain book store and out of curiosity picked up your magazine Sporting Shooter and I have to say I was absolutely disgusted at the contents. How can anybody in their right mind and with an ounce of decency write such horendous stuff. What you write about amounts to telling people how to murder poor defenceless animals you really are the scum of the earth and in my opinion people like you who write about this crap and people who actually do it should be wiped off the planet because you obviously have sick minds. Quite a lot of people have now complained to the store selling your magazine and hope they will consider stopping selling it. S Talboys
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 8:44 PM
Dear Sonja,
Thanks for your email. I respect your view, although as you might expect I don't agree. If you investigate a little further, you'll find that our readers are passionate about conservation and the killing that you dislike is part of a carefully planned management and harvesting of natural resources that results in great benefits for wildlife and biodiversity. I take it you are against any type of meat-eating, since that inevitably means killing animals; but even if everyone was to turn vegan there would still be a need to manage wild animal populations to prevent environmental disaster. People who oppose shooting often imagine something sick and twisted going on in the head of those who shoot; I can only say that they are wrong, and this says more about them than it does about the shooter. If you are interested in the subject generally, I do urge you to investigate further - there is much more to it than meets the eye.
Regards,
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 4 June 2009 22:19:59 BDT
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
This is a load of bullshit the wild life is quite capable of looking after itself and it has been proved with foxes the more you kill the more they breed leave the wild life to itself they do not need the human race to go and have a good day out shooting them or snaring them which is very very cruel do you approve of that?? Grouse and Pheasant are bred specifically for shooting so don't tell me that is right that certainly is not managing the wild .life that is just days out for perverts who simply like killing. Yes it is true I do not eat meat or fish or dairy products I do not wear leather or suede and there is nothing in my cottage that is tested on animals I have loads of animals all from people who have been cruel to them and they including my 6 dogs are veggie and may I add are all extremly fit and healthy and have always lived long lives as I have been taking in cruelty and unwanted cases for many many years so don't tell me shooting in necessary I know different. Also while writing this to you may I point out that the hunting bregade are always breaking the law and a lot have been prosecuted these sort of people think they are above the law and all they are are cowards with guns and dogs chasing one little animal how you can defend this I really don't know and I hope your magazine is stopped at the shops as it is very offensive.
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: 4 June 2009 22:31:59 BDT
Good heavens, you are a very angry person, full of hatred for people you don't know and don't understand and don't want to understand. Well, I am not going to change your views, am I. Live and let live. I trust when your dogs get fleas you will not kill the poor little creatures with poison.
Sincerely,
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 4 June 2009 23:14 BDT
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
Yes I do get very angry at people like you and believe me over many years I have learnt a lot about what goes on in the country side I live in it. I have looked into what you call management and so far have come up with nothing to change my mind. Also may I add my dogs have never had fleas they are regularly bathed in shampoo that is not tested on animals I would not use anything like you suggest on them do you honestly think someone like me who cares deeply for animals could do that. Well don't think there is any point carrying on with this conversation neither one of us will change our views but at least I have a clear conscience. I have had many a debate with your kind over the years and they never win they can never answer all my questions I put to them like you did not answer the question about snaring and the unlawfull hunting idiots.
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:57 AM
Dear Sonja,
I didn't think that was a question; it seemed like straightforward abuse. In fact the Hunting Act is a bad law, and the prosecutions have been negligible - the police have now stated that they are not even going to try to enforce it, and there's every chance it will be repealed in the next parliament.
Snaring, done properly, can be an extremely targeted and humane way to catch animals such as foxes. It is the preferred method of scientists who need to catch foxes, fit them with radio tracking tags, and release them alive and unharmed. It is also possible for idiots to make a horrendous mess of setting a snare, and cause suffering - the challenge is to minimise this without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are unpleasant people in all walks of life. Some of the things done in the name of animal rights/welfare have been pure evil, but I don't think that detracts from the arguments on that side. Likewise, a few keepers have been caught poisoning birds of prey, a disgusting act which I deplore; it doesn't make all shooters evil.
It's my belief that it is perfectly natural for humans to eat meat, and the inevitable killing is ok. We, like other predators, have been doing it for a very long time. My conscience is clear on that one. I acknowledge that you disagree and you've every right to do so. I don't believe it's right, however, for you to impose your moral code on everyone, and I don't like the way you revile people who choose a different way as "sick", "perverts", "cruel", etc. Do you hate people who work on farms, in slaughterhouses and butchers shops? Would you like them "wiped off the planet". Or is it that you hate what you imagine to be the motivation of people who hunt, shoot and fish?
Watching Springwatch on the TV recently, I am reminded that it is nonsense to talk of animals as "innocent", "defenceless", "cruel" etc. They are all engaged in a daily battle to eat or be eaten, they hold no grudges and make no judgements, they do not worry about future events like we do, and they do not dwell on the past. In the natural world, our abstract notions of right and wrong mean nothing. When we try to impose our way of thinking on animals, we tie ourselves in metaphysical knots.
Well, as you say, I won't change your view. But I would like you to acknowledge that it is possible to be a perfectly decent, thoughtful human being and still take part in activities that result in wild animals being killed and eaten.
Regards,
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 5 June 2009 12:30:20 BDT
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
As far as the hunting law goes it should have been an outright ban and as far as the police are concerned they have to uphold the law I shall be speaking to someone in a minute. These people who hunt are evil people when we were doing some monitoring we were attacked with crops charged at with horses if you could have seen the pure evil on the hunt peoples faces it was quite scary but would not put me off. You also brought up Spring Watch that I do not have a problem with the wild life take their chances with each other thats the way they live it is not necessary for the human race to get involved leave the wild life alone they would survive long aftere the human race has gone. As far as people working in slaughterhouses well I just can't imagine what sort of people they are well yes I can again evil people who like killing and some of these people are very abusive to the animals who are very frightened they have no respect for the animal at all I would like to see them put in a lions den and see the fear on their faces. Butchers I have no time for either. I do not dictate to people who want to eat meat it is up to them but most of my friends don't eat meat. I am dealing with cruelty cases on an almost daily basis and it does make you very angry as the law is an ass in this country regarding animals and WILL be changed. If you new the half of what does on you would understand why I am so passionate at stopping any kind of cruelty. S Talboys
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 21:41 PM
I can see that you feel passionately about wildlife, and abhor cruelty. No doubt you will find it hard to believe that I feel the same way. The crucial difference, I believe, is that my view is more pragmatic. I accept, for instance, that the British countryside and wildlife that we love has come about through man's actions. If we stop acting to protect it, many valuable habitats and species will be lost. This is not opinion, it is fact, otherwise why would the RSPB mow heather and kill predators on their reserves?
I too have experienced conflict between hunts and "monitors" (and we all know what that means); it is an ugly confrontation that brings out the worst in both sides. The air is full of hate, and the fox and its welfare have little to do with it.
It is this hate that worries me. If I stalk a deer and shoot it, that deer has lived the best possible life, does not suffer or even hear the bullet that kills it instantly and painlessly; it becomes meat which is used and appreciated. I take pride and satisfaction in doing the job well, and causing no suffering. I could not abide to see someone mistreat a dog, and will stop to put an end to the suffering of an animal hit by a car on the road. And yet you hate me and wish bad things to happen to me. You say you don't like cruelty, yet your language is full of the cruelty you would like to do to human beings?!
You "can't imagine what sort of people these are", then you go right ahead and imagine, and hate what you cook up in your head. It's all too simplistic. I'm right with you on preventing genuine cruelty, but you lose me as soon as you start hating (and wishing harm to) entire groups of people for what you imagine them to be.
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 7 June 2009 18:25:25 BDT
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
Yes it'sme again. What is it you surposedly do to help the countryside and wild life? The wild life kill each other so surely they do not need intervention of the human race. The foxes keep the rabbit population down yet people still go out shooting rabbits and people hunt foxes why???Because they are blood thirtsy people and enjoy it I heard this direct from someone once. The wild life are not stupid and over breed unlike the human race they certainly do. You also say that my language is full of cruelty yes that is so but only towards PEOPLE who HURT any animal or bird etc in any way. I yearn to live a peacefull life and not have on a daily basis be dealing with cruelty cases it is very upsetting. Now this is important on Saturday yesterday a jack russell dog was found caught in a snare near where I live the police rspca and a vet were called out the dog was ok but had to have it's leg amputated it did not have a collar or chip so when recovered from opp it will be coming to me while we try and find the irresponsible owner and pity help them also who ever laid the snare. Yet you say snares are OK you should have seen the state of this dog and the pain it must have suffered so any wild animal would suffer the same I hope snares will be made illegal one day (not that the law matters to some). Also I do know what people who want to kill and do are like I have met plenty in my time and especially the pompous hunting brigade they just love chasing and killing they are obsessed. Also people who test on animals in my opinion are pure evil what they do is horendous and totally unnecessary if you can do a job like that you must have a sadistic nature. All I can say is anyone who has made an animal suffer I hope sometime in their life they suffer really badly then they will understand what the animals have gone through it is wrong to take the life of an animal unless sick and in pain certainly not a healthy one.
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: 8 June 2009 23:04:58 BDT
Dear Sonja,
I can understand how upsetting it is to be confronted with cruelty cases on a daily basis, and the sort of case you describe does shooting no favours at all. Every shooter I know would be equally appalled at the dog's suffering. It's important to realise that 'shooters', 'hunters', etc are broad definitions like 'dog owners' or 'car drivers'. If one dog owner is cruel, it doesn't follow that all dog owners are evil. I've no doubt that there are some people out there who shoot, and who fall well short of the standards expected.
It's apparent in other walks of life that laws tend to affect the already law-abiding majority, and are ignored by the lawless. Bans are rarely a real solution. To take my dog-owner analogy a step further, one might suggest banning dog ownership as a solution to cruelty - result: millions of responsible dog-owners would suffer, and the irresponsible would carry on as before. We need to look beyond the knee-jerk reaction for real practical ways to make a difference.
People involved in shooting, fishing, hunting, etc have tended to be at the forefront of conservation work in the past (it was shooters who first highlighted the alarming decline of farmland birds, for example) and continue to shape and care for the countryside we know and love today. For examples, you could look at the BASC Green Shoots programme, and the work of the GWCT. I know this is often derided as 'greenwash' but facts are facts: shooters really do spend £250million a year on conservation, and help to manage 2/3 of Britain's rural land area (more at www.shootingfacts.co.uk). The vast majority of shooters are not rural hooligans wandering round blasting off at anything they see. They are deeply interested in the countryside and the environment, and take seriously their responsibility to manage it for future generations - at least that is my experience; undoubtedly there are bad examples as well as good.
I have very limited knowledge of animal testing, although I was involved with some animal experiments when I was studying at university (nothing that could be considered cruel - eg one involved measuring the testicles of rams and looking for a correlation with fecundity; the rams didn't seem to mind!). From my limited experience, however, I certainly wouldn't describe the people involved as 'sadists', quite the reverse.
It's important not to confuse killing with cruelty. If a vet puts down a sick animal that is not cruelty. I would argue that killing an animal for meat is not inherently cruel, so long as it is done painlessly and with respect for the animal. I understand that you don't agree with humans killing for food, but that is miles apart from deliberately inflicting pain and suffering.
I'm afraid that your 'anti' stance will pretty much guarantee you a frosty reception among any group of country sports people, just as I would not be well received by a group of hunt monitors etc. However, I would urge you to persevere and try to find out more about what makes shooters tick - I honestly believe you would be pleasantly surprised.
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 10 June 2009 17:45:12 BDT
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
I am sure some people who shoot are not all evil you do sound quite nice but I still disagree with you on killing unless of course the animal is suffering and nothing can be done for it I also believe this should be allowed with the human race as well. But people who hunt with horses and dogs are pure evil very pompous arrogant and down right nasty people and I will never feel any differently about them. You say when you shoot its a clean shot and the animal does not suffer but that does not always happen I have taken in loads of animals and birds with gunshot wounds. But hunting foxes and deers with dogs is disgusting chasing them till they are exhausted and frightened and then torn appart these are the sort of people I would like to put in a lions den with the lions of course. You talk about dog ownership that is nothing to do with blood sports. Anyone who is cruel to a dog or any animal should be banned from ever from having an animal also prosecuted and a long jail sentence the law is an ass in this country it should be same for cruelty to animals as it is for children. Don't tell me you don't know what goes on in labs with animal testing there has been enough in the media with Animal Rights (Iam a member) an example "Proctor and Gamble" test for Herbal Essences shampoo they place the animal which is pregnant in a wire cage which gives them foot ulcers and other injuries every 2 weeks a chemical that goes in the shampoo is poured through a tube forced down the throat and just before they give birth the animal suffers a painfull and terrifying death in a carbon dioxide gas chamber and hundreds of babies were dismembered this is totally unnecessary as you can buy many shampoos that are not tested on animals and these are fine. Animals in slaughterhouses get treated dreadfully no respect for how frightened the animal is I have seen videos of men kicking hitting and throwing animals about alive also many animals are shipped abroad alive for the meat market hours and hours of misery shocking. Oh yes I would get a very frosty welcome from the hunt people I have already been in that position but they do not scare or bother me they think they are so brave killing little animals but really they are just simply the biggest cowards on this planet. I live right out in the countryside (no hunts here) but they do shoot in the woods nearby Grouce and Pheasant which as you know are bred simply to shoot absolute disgrace those people really do like killing otherwide why would they do it. But hopefully the credit crunch will put all these shoots out of business I know a lot that have stopped and the game keepers have lost their homes. I notice you did not comment on the snare that the little dog got caught in snares are very very cruel and should be banned and we are working to try and get this to happen how you can defend the use of them I really cannot understand as you say you abhore cruelty but animals caught in these do suffer as was apparent with the dog however carefully you lay them they do the same damage. Charles Windsor now wants all grey squirrels culled what next killing is inbred in that family not a good example to the decent people. S Talboys
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: 10 June 2009 18:31:33 BDT
OK, well I've said my piece, and you clearly believe only what you want to hear. You are basically a thoughtful, compassionate person who is being manipulated by those with an extreme political agenda - what experts in terrorism rather unkindly classify as a "useful idiot". I commend your practical work in helping animals that have suffered, and urge you to question what you are told by all sides on this debate. Things are rarely as black and white as they seem.
Regards,
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 10 Jun 2009, at 20:11
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
Last time, I can assure you I am not being manipulated by anybody I have a mind of my own and use it, in fact people listen to me so don't say I am being manipulated when you know nothing about me at all. I have been involved with this sort of work for also 50 years so I think I know what I am talking about you just simply do not like anyone who is strong minded like me upsetting your little set up. You still, just like a politician have not answered the question in your case about snares instead you bombard me with other things hoping I will forget but not me I NEVER forget anything. You may get some more emails as I have passed all this on to various people they may though decide you are not worth the effort. I shall not be sending anymore emails but we are all going to complain to the book store selling your magazine even if we don't get anywhere at ;least we have done our best and can sleep at night. Good Buy
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: 10 June 2009 22:53:34 BDT
I think I answered your question about snares when I wrote:
Snaring, done properly, can be an extremely targeted and humane way to catch animals such as foxes. It is the preferred method of scientists who need to catch foxes, fit them with radio tracking tags, and release them alive and unharmed. It is also possible for idiots to make a horrendous mess of setting a snare, and cause suffering - the challenge is to minimise this without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.It's shocking to hear about the jack russell, and it saddens me that anyone is using snares in such an irresponsible way. I would not dream of speaking up for such behaviour and would support any sensible move that would stop it happening. I honestly don't believe that a 'ban' would make the slightest difference to this sort of thing, though. Do you? Or do you have any other suggestions?
Does this answer the question? If not, explain - I'm not afraid to tackle it.
It's a shame if some people take everything you say as gospel, as you are quite plainly wrong on certain matters of fact; much of what you preach is opinion, and rather extreme opinion at that. Your Procter & Gamble fairytale is clearly copied from some animal rights extremist pamphlet - you are certainly not the primary source of that 'information', nor have you made the slightest effort to verify it for yourself. You have never been in a slaughterhouse, yet you watch a propaganda video and believe they're all like that all the time. And you believe that people shoot grouse in the woods. And people hang on your every word. Oh dear.
Actually I enjoy conversations with 'strong minded' people like yourself. Someone once told me "I never learnt anything from anyone I agreed with" - an overstatement, but an interesting thought. Nothing you have said so far has changed my views substantially though - you have simply trotted out the same old distortions and hyperbole that I've encountered a hundred times before (sounds like I'll be hearing them again from your friends now too). I could explain about the need to control grey squirrels etc etc but you just don't listen. You're too busy hating the human race for the actions of a few idiots. Sadly, your attitude stands in the way of real progress on animal welfare.
Ah well, I'll stand back and await the tide of venom that will no doubt flood in from your mates after they've been chucked out of the newsagents.
Cheerio,
James
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From: sonjatalboys@xxxxx.co.uk
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Date: 11 June 2009 15:40:26 BDT
To: james.marchington@archant.co.uk
I don't just hate the idiots you talk about that kill I hate everyone who abuses an animal in any form full stop. Everyone has a right to an opinion and my friends will not get thrown out of Smiths they are going in to complain about such an awfull magazine being on sale some have already done this and one reply was from the assistant" we don't like it anymore than you but what can you do". As far as animal testing goes I have done undercover work and know first hand what goes on and I have a lot to do with the leaflets that go out and believe me every word I said is the truth. I have never been in a slaughterhouse but have friends (Not animal rights) who have done documentaries and news programmes for TV and the animals are treated disgracefully. I never talk about anything that I don't havet first class knowledge on. I have always had a passion for animals from a very early age. When I was three the bin men were emptying the bins they had a horse and cart in those days and "Dolly" the horse would not move and Jimmy the man hit the horse I was watching through the window and promptly went out and told him if he hit the horse again I would hit him. I also hit someone abusing a donkey on the sands when I was small I ran up and took the crop off him and then hit the man with it my Mother didn't know what to do. So as you can see this has been in me for a long time and I will never change. I also like discussions with people but you and I would get nowhere as we both think differently and strongly. The grouse shooting starts near me in August and Pheasants later on that is fact nobody in the cottages up and down my lane like it but as it is not against the law (YET) there is very little we can do. I feed all the birds including pheasants grouse and quaile also wild rabbits and ducks come in my garden and I try to keep them coming on my property by feeding them and hope they will keep away from the murderers. Well I think we have now come to the end of this very lengthy discussion so you do what you want and I shall carry on with what I do.But before I go you say to me I should look into what you do, well I suggest you look into animal testing and see the tremendous cruelty there and also these foreign countries like China that skin animals ALIVE for their fur so if you say what you do is good for animals and you abhore cruelty why not look into some of the cruelty I have mentioned.
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From: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
To: "Sonja Talboys"
Date: Thursday, 11 June, 2009, 5:16 PM
Well I hope your friends kick up a fuss about the cookery, farming, motoring, etc magazines too, as they are responsible for far more animal death than shooting. Have you looked into Halal slaughter? Why is it that animal rights groups never campaign against that? Afraid of being branded racist? I note too that domestic cats are responsible for untold cruelty to Britain's wildlife. Presumably you would like to feed them to the lions, or just ban them? By the way, you're evading my questions on snaring now.
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On 11 Jun 2009, at 19:11, Sonja Talboys wrote:
We have done a lot of demonstrating against slaughter of animals for food and live exports. T Shirt I have say's "Meat is Murder" call me a racist, activist, what ever you like I don't care I am what I am and no animal rights person would care what you thought we only care about the animals. You can live without an animal being hurt I am living proof of that I have been vegan for 46 years and still dig holes and concrete posts in etc. We have been very successfull over the years changing peoples minds about meat and fish there are now thousands upon thousands of veggies including Paul McCartney a friend. His land and The League Against Cruel Sports have loads of deer that were chased and fortunately got to safety (on their land).
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From: James Marchington
Date: 11 June 2009 23:10:07 BDT
To: Sonja Talboys
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
Have you seen the state of the deer at the League's 'sanctuary'? It's a disgrace. Living proof that 'leave them alone' is just another form of cruelty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbgDclFnxdI
It's actually not possible for any human to live without having an impact on the environment and wildlife. Of course it's possible to survive on a diet of vegetable matter, and you've proved that (although it's not a practical way for most of the world's population to live). But we humans must have shelter, warmth, food and water or die, and in providing those things, even at the most basic level, we affect the environment; some animals and plants gain, others suffer. Our bodies are fighting a constant battle with micro-organisms that would kill us - your immune system kills countless bacteria and viruses every day. We have to protect our crops and food stores from being eaten and from contamination by eg rats with leptospirosis in their urine. The clothing you wear may not be made out of animal material, but the plants had to be protected from pests (or if synthetic produced harmful pollution). At the very least this involved depriving animals and insects of food; more likely they were killed so that the cotton farmer or etc could eke a living.
It is a dangerous lie to suggest that humans can live without impacting animals and the environment. Sadly there are, as you say, a good many muppets who simply don't get this. They go through life oblivious of the impact of their existence, thinking they leave no environmental trace. Modern 21st century civilization impacts the environment more than ever. The challenge is a) to understand the complex interactions and b) to manage our way of life to minimise harm to the environment and biodiversity. Animal rights extremism stands in the way of sensible debate and real practical progress. Which explains why my stance is pro-welfare but anti-rights - a crucial distinction. McCartney and his ilk have not only blocked progress but have helped create a mood that has fostered some of the most unpleasant terrorism of their generation; they have a lot to answer for.
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On 11 Jun 2009, at 19:02, Sonja Talboys wrote:
I have had many a set too with farmers believe me and as far as not answering your question on snares I think I have already done that by saying ban them and just don't have anything and leave the wild life alone as far as I am concerned the wild life will sort itself out no need from human intervention. Do you mean cats are cruel because they catch birds and mice I don't like that but its their nature to do it like lions chase zebra etc for food. That is how the wild life live and should be left alone to do it the deer in this country don't have a natural predator only man so why not dart them catch the male's and castrate them and then let live and let live you could also dart foxes if needed to put collars on them.
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From: James Marchington
Date: 11 June 2009 23:14:37 BDT
To: Sonja Talboys
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
You are joking - have you ever tried to dart a wild deer? I have. Perhaps the LACS would like to open up their so-called sanctuary to expert scrutiny so we can see how they think it should be done! Collars on foxes - I love it. With little cat bells to warn the prey they're coming?
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From: Sonja Talboys
Date: 12 June 2009 14:24:30 BDT
To: James Marchington
Subject: Re: What a disgrace
You are getting a bit nasty now with your comments on your blog I never said catch foxes and put bells on them you silly man. What you said about the deer on The Leagues Property is a terrible thing to say I have phoned them and read them the email. Anyway I am not bothering with you anymore and I take back saying I though you sounded nice you don't. You are now making up stories so be very carefull. I Hope the League can get you for what you said.
